I am getting some fairly intense Nice Guy vibes from you in this post. Don't do that. I agree with Greta Christina on this subject
: True Love Everlasting has nothing to do with feelings or soulmates, and everything to do with making a commitment and building a relationship together.
I aimed to deflect potential Nice Guy accusations with the use of that very explicit quote. Yes, I acknowledge that most of my female friends aren't attracted to me, and I have no reason to think less of them for that. However, I do see a mental flaw in the ones who ARE attracted to me but are blinded by their friend zoning of me during their previous relationship. I don't hold that against them. It's their choice, regardless of why they made it. But you cannot fault me for simply trying to avoid that scenario by meeting women more often between relationships than during.
Also, the idea of strong relationships being built on commitment and time only further strengthens my point about the merits of cradle robbing. Doubly so. These are potential partners who have not yet wasted as much time on relationships that did not work out, and with whom there is more time to spend building new relationships.
Edited at 2012-07-13 10:26 pm (UTC)
"I do see a mental flaw in the ones who ARE attracted to me but are blinded by their friend zoning of me during their previous relationship"
I'm just speaking for myself here, as a person with girl parts :)
If I "friend zone" someone I may be attracted to because I'm in a relationship, if there are REAL feelings there, they probably won't go away. However, if it's just a physical attraction, it does go away if I never act on it-- and often times, even if I consider a romantic relationship with Other Guy, spending time with him in a platonic setting usually makes me see some personality flaws that would make a romantic relationship undesirable anyway.
If I "friend zone" someone I may be attracted to because I'm in a relationship, if there are REAL feelings there, they probably won't go away.
And yet that is specifically what has happened multiple times in my romantic life. I have had girls *crying* on my shoulder over what we might have had.
However, if it's just a physical attraction, it does go away if I never act on it--
Hence my desire to meet women who are single more often, because then this eventuality, which is neither of our faults, happens less often.
</blockquote>and often times, even if I consider a romantic relationship with Other Guy, spending time with him in a platonic setting usually makes me see some personality flaws that would make a romantic relationship undesirable anyway.</blockquote>
In my own case, I try to make all my personality flaws glaringly obvious ahead of time :)
"And yet that is specifically what has happened multiple times in my romantic life. I have had girls *crying* on my shoulder over what we might have had."
Hmm, so what was the problem, if you're both single and there is still a mutual attraction?
"In my own case, I try to make all my personality flaws glaringly obvious ahead of time :)"
LOL me too. usually on the first date.
Also, the problem with younger people, and WHY they tend to have shorter relationships, is they don't know what they want. If all you're looking for is casual sex, this isn't a problem. But it's hard to build a lifetime partnership with someone who has barely experienced the world. I dated the same guy from age 15 to 22... this is exactly why we broke up. By the time we were in our early 20's, we had changed so much and didn't want the same things anymore. Shit, I just think about how much I've changed between 25 and 30... I'm barely the same person I was 5 years ago.
Edited at 2012-07-13 11:37 pm (UTC)
Well, as you say, for casual sex it's not a problem.
And when it comes to relationships... I could do with more 7-year relationships in my life. And if you're still changing at 30, the core point of my post still applies, a hypothetical partner would have had a better chance with your short-relationship counterpart at 15 than at 30, and your dynamic nature wouldn't have been any worse then.
Well, I totally think that having a long-term relationship for most of my teenage years was probably not the best thing to do, and I probably could have missed out on meeting someone really compatible (though, my dating pool was limited to people in southwest Georgia, so I don't feel like I missed out on very MUCH). But, I'm pretty stoked about the guy I have now, and I think I'll keep him anyway. Hehe!
On that tangent, congrats btw. Do let me know when the handfasting/etc is.
...I'm sorry, are you implying that there gets to be a point where people stop changing? And that people shouldn't settle down until after that point?
Not at all. If you're changing at 20 and still changing at 30 (a proposition I neither support nor deny in this subthread) then the the changing-ness has no bearing on the fact that I should try to meet you when you're 20.
2012-07-13 11:46 pm (UTC)
Maybe rather than wasting their time on relationships that did not work out, they've spent their time fruitfully practicing having relationships and learning valuable relationship skills as well as more wisdom about what they do and don't want in a partner?
Those savvy and lucky few are outside the scope of this discussion, and I've had the good fortune to know some of them.
I wouldn't call it a lucky few. To get pithy/cliche, "live and learn" --it's hard not to gain experience by doing things. Even if someone gets into a rut and continues having the same bad relationship over and over again, they're still learning skills of some sort, to make the relationship easier on them, or to make the not-bad parts become better.
I have learned things from everyone I've ever dated. I've learned how to break-up from the dumping end. I've learned how to cope from the being dumped end. I've learned how to look out for myself. I've learned how to take care of people. I'm learning how to confront people. Relationships take practice, communication takes practise, but shockingly, it's a thing that happens and that people get good at the more often they do.
Maybe they don't want to act on their attraction, even if it's present. I can think of half-a-dozen reasons why this might be the case --including the semi-bullshit "I don't want to ruin our friendship" one.
You're not being the entitled kind of Nice Guy ("I give her emotional intimacy so therefore deserve sexual intimacy") but your focus on relationship availability as part of forming friendship creates a seriously sketchy vibe of being interested in women because they are fuckable1 before being interested in women because they are interesting people.
1: For whatever extremely broad definition of fuck we're using this week. Anything as casual as groping and rope to full fledged porno-pounding.
In defense of "not ruining the friendship"-- a personal anecdote: I met a guy during a brief period in 2002 when my boyfriend and I were broken up. I fell in love with him almost instantly, but got back together with my bf, because I was a moron (in my defense, my bf was the first guy I'd ever slept with so I was attached in only the way an 18 year old virgin can be). Then, when I finally ended that relationship in 2005, I was still in love with the other guy, and we sorta had a "friends with benefits" thing for about 2 years. Finally, I got tired of my feelings being unrequited and I met someone who DID want a relationship with me, and told me so (imagine that!). When I told the guy that I was seeing someone else, he literally FLIPPED THE FUCK OUT, said that he was in love with me (what), and if I didn't love him back, then we couldn't be friends. He hasn't spoken to me in 4 years. :/ In hindsight, I'd rather have just stayed friends & never slept with him in the first place. After that, my rule has been to never date someone I've been friends with for more than a couple of months.
So you believe anyone who enters into a friends with benefits situation with you will flip out when you move on to a more romantic relationship?
Ah, no. Though it seems pretty likely, given that I'm not the only woman I know who's been in that scenario, but I try not to assume everybody is the same. For me it is a risk analysis. I don't think rubbing body parts together is worth potentially ruining a friendship. I've had plenty of FWB's turn into perfectly fine just F's, but not the other way around.
So... "No, yes, yes with support, no. Yes, yes, yes."?
I don't understand the question. I'm not saying everybody has to follow my advice. I'm just giving a personal anecdote to explain why someone might say they don't want to ruin a friendship. o_O
One could argue that 30 year olds are more interesting than 20 year olds. I would probably agree, but for now I'm going to call that outside the scope of this discussion. With no regard for how interesting the people are, I would still choose to aim younger for the other reasons outlined here. The core point here, separate from and mostly orthagonal to all other factors affecting desirability, is availability, which is higher in younger people.
Yes, making a commitment, and building a relationship together is they key. More and more people seem to think love and good relationships are magic or something nutty like that.
2012-07-13 11:44 pm (UTC)
I don't buy the "choosing wrong" frame. It puts all the focus on the inherent attributes of other individuals, implying that the keys to relationship happiness lie pretty much entirely in who you have a relationship with.
However, people build relationships together, and in good relationships, they change each other over time. Important keys to relationship happiness can include, who you're with, who *you* are, how you handle relationships, the longevity of the relationship, the context in which you start it and the context in which you continue it, your financial situation and theirs, and a bunch of other things. For example: Perhaps I could have a better relationship with Jen than with Lorna, this summer, assuming we meet now... but if I'd met Jen five years ago not only would that relationship have been better, but it would have greater potential now than any relationship I might start with Lorna this summer.
Now, what if someone's idea of a good relationship is monogamy? If you combine that with prioritizing the qualities that are best built over time together, you can see that choosing earlier may give you much better odds than waiting around for a "better" choice later. Choose early enough, and you'll even get more chances to choose again.
Separately, I don't believe in the "friend zone". I've seen friendships transition into relationships, and I've had it happen with some of my friendships. It is true that some people mostly tend towards thinking of newly-met people as potential dating partners, but it is also true that other people mostly tend towards thinking of people they've already known a while as potential dating partners. People with either of these tendencies occasionally find themselves in an exception, and plenty of people don't have a particularly strong tendency one way or the other. IMO, "friend zone" is mostly a euphemism for "not interested in you that way", and just a few exceptions that really do fit the "friend zone" definition help people believe that it's a real thing in general.
You are the umpteenth person to bring up that choosing earlier can lead to more strongly built relationships... and you're the umpteenth person to whom I am going to point out that this is only stronger support for my point that seeking out younger partners is a positive strategy.
The "friend zone" concept is just plain weird. I don't get it. My male friends are my males friends because I'm not attracted to them. I like them like crazy but they aren't people I would ever choose to have a relationship with (for a variety of reasons) single or otherwise.
So, if you're in a relationship, and you meet someone with whom you would have a relationship if you weren't... What do you do? Those are the people I'm talking about.
Well, I can't really answer for someone who is poly, just for me. If I'm not in a serious committed relationship and am just dating someone casually and met a person I was really interested in, I'd ask him out.
If I was seriously committed, they probably wouldn't blip on the radar. If they did blip, and I later found myself single (like right now) I'd ask them out.
As I mentioned, I'm single now and regularly hang out with several single male friends. I'm not dating them because I'm not interested in them in a romantic or sexual way. The lack of interest has nothing to do with how long I've known them. In fact, I would prefer to date someone I've known for several years versus a stranger. I prefer truly knowing someone then getting a big ole box of unfortunate surprises. But alas, the interest just isn't there. I wish it was. They are all great guys but it just ain't there for me.
Does that make sense?
It does. Thanks for the clarification. You're exceptional :)
I think maybe you should go back to "In Defense of Robbing the Cradle" as your title. Or maybe break this into some smaller, sub-headed essaylets.
The title "You Chose Wrong," as you apply it to your monogamist friends in the first section, makes assumptions about the goals of monogamists. You seem to be assuming that their goal is to choose the best possible person out of everyone for all of those intimate, sexual, etc. experiences. For many of us, that's not the goal at all. For plenty of us, the goal is to live a certain lifestyle that we need a partner to accomplish. The One True Love is not the goal, it's the accomplishments. For those of us with that goal, constantly changing partners or having multiple partners would actually be a step in the wrong direction. As a monogamist, that judgment irritates me.
Not sure what to tell you about the Friend-Zoning other than to offer sympathy. I don't think I ever ruled out dating someone I was already friends with based on that - I almost exclusively dated people who were already my friends. Though several times it took meeting a stranger and thinking "I'm really attracted to this person, why is that? Oh, it's because he reminds me of $FriendName! Holy crap, I totally have the hots for $FriendName!" to realize what I wanted.
As for "robbing the cradle," [shrug]. People apply filters to all searches. As in all cases, sometimes they help you, but they also can prevent you from finding the thing that you were not looking for that is even better. And sometimes you need to toss your search filters.
The problem with breaking this up is that the connection between the parts would be lost. Unfortunately it seems that is being lost on most people here anyway. You are arguing against my suggestions in the first parts of the essay, and in doing so you are only lending more support to my final point. If there are monogamists out there for whom having a partner at all is important enough to outweigh the benefits of having a great partner, those people are still more examples of why dating younger is a good strategy.
To rephrase... I haven't said "you should A, you should B, I should C". I have said "you should A, you should B, but since you aren't going to, that means I need to C to compensate for your choice".